Curse

ensoriki · Dec 04, 2007, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Hear it everyday on guru, ah GW rewards time more than skill now blah.

1st of all, You do not need a title Ever to be able to beat the game.
If your saying what about 10k faction needed, that is not rewarding your time over skill, you can just Ab that if you want too and have some fun and if 10k Faction takes you a long time....Im gonna find someone to pray for you.

Title grind.
You do not need Lightbringer, you do not need Sunspear title (except for that 1 quest, which isn't a biggy...didnt they change that to Nightfall chars only?)

Ursan...lol you don't need ursan to beat the game.

Titles
Most Titles don't even do anything for petes sake your just whining because you can't get them quickly. GW is a game and to keep people interested it gives a form of grind to people who like that. No grinding title is a necessity to pass the game, you don't need to max a title to beat the game.

Grinding isn't going to even do much in PvP since OP pve skills do not exist to take power from that.

Most of you don't pug anyways so why do you care about if pugs won't take you?
Get a guild.

This omfg Grind titles ruin the game thing, nonsense. GW does not require you to grind to ever do well in the game, if you believe you cannot do well in the game thats because you do not have the skill to do so anyways so why do you want your imaginary skill>time when you don't have the skill anyways?

GW has Pve, look at any MMO there is a grind pretty much (very few cases...and they have gold grind =P)

You don't need Fow armor or Ancient armor (most of em are THE fugly) anyways.
You don't need 30k balthazar cap.
You don't need Glad's title (which BTW....you can get from skill)
You don't need Drunkard, Sweet tooth etc.

Because of Rainbow phoenix? Getting Masters on all missions, is something you would do if you liked pve anyways so thats 1 wtf,Getting Cartographer is just something you do, no real effect on the game, Survivor is for those who want a challenge (although you can get it cheaply if you wish....the Easy way)

is it because of favor? Notice how Favor is on almost all day (except late at night really) so once again....no big deal.

Because PVE skills/Ursan are strong? You don't need them to do well, you don't need them to do anything in the game, if you want to use these skills then play through the game.

Vanquisher exists as a way to get exp and money, and add role-play value. If you don't want to play pve anymore anyways Don't.

I must be missing something, so someone inform me wtf im missing/

Dev121 · Dec 04, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

My thoughts on titles:

I get the ones I like
I dont get the ones I dont
I play for fun
Im a scrub

freaky naughty · Dec 04, 2007, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Well Skill is greater than time if you just want to be a casual player but if you want to be one of those hardcore players sporting their little phoenix emotes you need way more time than skill trust me. To max out any title you need more time than skill. Sure titles are optional, but after you beat the game on 8different characters what good does beating the game again do you? I keep playing for PvP, titles, and to gather some great equipment. I actually like titles because they keep me busy.

aapo · Dec 05, 2007, 12:09 AM // 00:09

To put it shortly: people are stupid.

People on this board type messages because they have nothing better to do on their spare time. If you fail a mission X you come here and and say that mission X is too difficult nerf pl0x. If someone turns down your offer for PUG, it's essay time about how PvE and PUGs are dead period. If you see more than two people mentioning something like Ursan Blessing on local chat (which you don't have), the immediate result is thread stating that Ursan Blessing kills the game nerf pl0x.

Who said you had to construct intelligent arguments here? Who said that you should give reasons for you opinions? Who said that you should put references to your threads when you're stating things like "majority of people have...", "PvP players think that..."? This isn't some kind of forum for educated people. Anything goes. I wouldn't know if half of the people used sarcasm on every post they make.

You are an exception with this post, Ensoriki. Let's see what kinds of answers we get.

Bryant Again · Dec 05, 2007, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Apparently the words "PvE skills" are not enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Ursan...lol you don't need ursan to beat the game.

You don't even need a full skill bar to beat the game. What's your point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

GW has Pve, look at any MMO there is a grind pretty much (very few cases...and they have gold grind =P)

Guild Wars is not an MMO.

Quote:

Because PVE skills/Ursan are strong? You don't need them to do well, you don't need them to do anything in the game, if you want to use these skills then play through the game.

That's not what's wrong with them. It's the fact that they become stronger the more you grind a title, hence promoting Time Spent > Skill.

Of course, quite a few have the problem of being ridiculously overpowered in themselves (eh hem UB, "SY!", "TNTF!")...

bel unbreakable · Dec 05, 2007, 12:17 AM // 00:17

oh no here we go again skill>time spent but it should read time = skill.

cellardweller · Dec 05, 2007, 12:28 AM // 00:28

The problem with all the pve skills and title effects is not that they're required to finish the storyline, but rather that they give players a direct competitive advantage over others. The level playing field was what made guildwars a great game and sadly now that is gone.

In an ideal world, superpowered skills and effects would not exist, but if anet is going to put them in to allow high end content to be made more of a cakewalk, then they need to make access to the effects just as accessible.

aapo · Dec 05, 2007, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That's not what's wrong with them. It's the fact that they become stronger the more you grind a title, hence promoting Time Spent > Skill.

- "time > skill" is a mathematical inequation. We could say that 5 > 3 "Five is greater than 3", because 5 and 3 are both numbers and thus reside in same "domain". Time and skill have nothing to do with one another and you can't compare them like this.

PvE skills get better as you advance in their respective title tracks, but this is nowhere near complete explanation why you think spending "time" yields better rewards than using "skill" to get them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The problem with all the pve skills and title effects is not that they're required to finish the storyline, but rather that they give players a direct competitive advantage over others.

- PvE skills are skills which you can use only in PvE against AI opponent. They can't be used in PvP where PvE skill holder would have advantage over those who didn't have the skill. Thus your claim is false.

ensoriki · Dec 05, 2007, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

GW is not a MMO

If I need an internet connection to play it, if there are people from around the world in the same game with me. If its massive
Im calling it a damn MMO
"Oh but instancing" >.> Go play Nostale...has instancing..still an MMO

In the time it takes to grind these max titles
Not only have you beaten the game, you have had time to get Protector on that campaign , if you did not master ANY mission the 1st time. If you had, then you have time to get HM protector on each mission.
And done an ass chunk of quests, possibly vanquished 1-6 areas
This is if your going against some kinda HardCore knows what hes doing does it in 5 hours farmer

A distinct advantage they give? Considering Most of those titles are something your supposed to get just playing the game.
"Ah I feel like questing, Take the bounty and then lets go kill X monster"
You take the bounties as you play, if you were not doing so...whos fault is that?

The Leveled playing field?
May I show you the assassin and mesmer? Not wanted by the few remaining Pugs that exist?
That disadvantage only comes if you do not have that campaign/expansion actually, which BTW? You also have a skill disadvantage if you dont have all campaigns regardless of PVE skills or not.

Shadowmere · Dec 05, 2007, 12:37 AM // 00:37

I honestly don't get why everyone gets so fired up over some extra titles that require some grind to max.
How does it give the high time investors an edge? you get more effective Pve ONLY skills, and seeing as how PvE dosen't involve players competing I don't see how any "advantage" or w/e can be considered, aren't we working together in PvE?

And as far as the whole skill thing goes, yes those who are newer to the game won't be as skilled, it's called a learning curve. The point is, we can all only get so good, so time put in grows our skill only to a cut off point.

Sharkman · Dec 05, 2007, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The problem with all the pve skills and title effects is not that they're required to finish the storyline, but rather that they give players a direct competitive advantage over others. The level playing field was what made guildwars a great game and sadly now that is gone.

Since when is PvE "competitive"?

cellardweller · Dec 05, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- "time > skill" is a mathematical inequation. We could say that 5 > 3 "Five is greater than 3", because 5 and 3 are both numbers and thus reside in same "domain". Time and skill have nothing to do with one another and you can't compare them like this.

PvE skills get better as you advance in their respective title tracks, but this is nowhere near complete explanation why you think spending "time" yields better rewards than using "skill" to get them.

"skill>time" is short hand for the byline of guildwars

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guildwars Press Release

The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork, not time spent playing, so you won't need to spend hundreds of hours leveling up your character to compete.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- PvE skills are skills which you can use only in PvE against AI opponent. They can't be used in PvP where PvE skill holder would have advantage over those who didn't have the skill. Thus your claim is false.

They allow a player to kill faster AI and while suffering fewer losses than than their fellow players, hence they give a direct competitive advantage in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharkman

Since when is PvE "competitive"?

For as long as people have been interacting.

ensoriki · Dec 05, 2007, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Wait.

Who the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO
Are you competing against in PvE?

The only time you will compete is for a team.
Which does not matter if your an Ele, Monk or Necro ANYWAYS

cellardweller · Dec 05, 2007, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmere

I honestly don't get why everyone gets so fired up over some extra titles that require some grind to max.
How does it give the high time investors an edge? you get more effective Pve ONLY skills, and seeing as how PvE dosen't involve players competing I don't see how any "advantage" or w/e can be considered, aren't we working together in PvE?

I'll give you a very real example. My partner and I currently have a entry in the monthly high scores for Glint's Challenge (or at least last time I checked). If this were a pre-pve skill game, I would have been able to be proud of the fact however the score means nothing because I have Deldrimore rank 10 and a 5 second "save yourselves" whereas the vast majority of the people I'm competing against don't.

Level playing fields are what make sport fun.

aapo · Dec 05, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Guildwars Press Release
"The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork, not time spent playing, so you won't need to spend hundreds of hours leveling up your character to compete."

- There's nothing contradictory to current state of the game. Besides it's pretty obvious that this refers to PvP with the word "compete" in context where (all?) previous games of the genre have had PvP system where better geared characters have dominated others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

They allow a player to kill faster AI and while suffering fewer losses than than their fellow players, hence they give a direct competitive advantage in PvE.

- Compared to players with equal skill, yes, but the argument here was that the time you've spend getting these skills will give you better result than someone who is skilled in the game is going to get.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I'll give you a very real example. My partner and I currently have a entry in the monthly high scores for Glint's Challenge (or at least last time I checked). If this were a pre-pve skill game, I would have been able to be proud of the fact however the score means nothing because I have Deldrimore rank 10 and a 5 second "save yourselves" whereas the vast majority of the people I'm competing against don't.

- Problem is in the challenge mission which shouldn't allow PvE skills or titles to mess scores. ANET has made a mistake.

ensoriki · Dec 05, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I'll give you a very real example. My partner and I currently have a entry in the monthly high scores for Glint's Challenge (or at least last time I checked). If this were a pre-pve skill game, I would have been able to be proud of the fact however the score means nothing because I have Deldrimore rank 10 and a 5 second "save yourselves" whereas the vast majority of the people I'm competing against don't.

Level playing fields are what make sport fun.

Oh right Challenge Missions!!!

You know whats crazy?
If your a PvE character, your going to get Sunspear,Lightbringer,Alliance,Norn and Vanguard anyhow.

Why?
Take bounties whenever you can, if your playing the game your going to get it maxed. Also I dunno why don't you suggest banning PvE skills from challenge missions.

I must be crazy, for thinking that taking 5 seconds to run to a shrine take the bounty and continue is so hard.

Bryant Again · Dec 05, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

PvE skills get better as you advance in their respective title tracks, but this is nowhere near complete explanation why you think spending "time" yields better rewards than using "skill" to get them.

It's less the "rewards" and more the "success": It goes against the saying "You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate" (Prophecies box) an d then to level up your Norn title track and go pwn face in DoA with UB and a Paragon with "Save Yourselves!" and "There's Nothing to Fear!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

If I need an internet connection to play it, if there are people from around the world in the same game with me. If its massive Im calling it a damn MMO

You're disconnected from the playerbase through outposts and instances, and given the fact of how few are playing right now (may even be less than 1m), that's a lot of seperation. To me, each outpost is just like a chatroom in Diablo except in 3D (but with more annoying people and scammers).

Sure you can still "whisper" to people, but you could also do that in Starcraft. There's a guild and alliance chat, but there was also Vent and TS.

Nonetheless, the best reason *not* to call it an MMO is because it has nothing that MMO players want besides swords, monsters and scantily clothed girls: No endgame, no high-level caps, no gear progression...List goes on.

Sure, you can call it an MMO if you'd like, but don't be bitter if someone calls it a terrible game because of that. Solid RPG, boring MMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

In the time it takes to grind these max titles
Not only have you beaten the game, you have had time to get Protector on that campaign , if you did not master ANY mission the 1st time. If you had, then you have time to get HM protector on each mission.
And done an ass chunk of quests, possibly vanquished 1-6 areas

I'd normally be with you, but UB is an exception to this: R5 Norn is as shit to get, and that's really all that you need to be effective with it. Level it up higher and it's more ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

This is if your going against some kinda HardCore knows what hes doing does it in 5 hours farmer

It's not terribly hard, you know.

KANE OG · Dec 05, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

/rant thread ftl. Couldn't you find one of those threads on this very subject that are buried and rez the thing so it can be properly closed?

KANE

cellardweller · Dec 05, 2007, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- There's nothing contradictory to current state of the game.

In order to be as successful as someone of equal skill with maxed titles, you would need to spend over a thousand hours grinding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

Besides it's pretty obvious that this refers to PvP with the word "compete" in context where (all?) previous games of the genre have had PvP system where better geared characters have dominated others.

Not obvious at all, especially when the statement applied perfectly to a pre-grind title PvE game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- Compared to players with equal skill, yes, but the argument here was that the time you've spend getting these skills will give you better result than someone who is skilled in the game is going to get.

Thats exactly the point - A less skilled player can do better than more skilled player by virtue of grinding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

You know whats crazy?
If your a PvE character, your going to get Sunspear,Lightbringer,Alliance,Norn and Vanguard anyhow.

Why?
Take bounties whenever you can, if your playing the game your going to get it maxed.

I must be crazy, for thinking that taking 5 seconds to run to a shrine take the bounty and continue is so hard.

It won't though. My MoTN toon finished with 9 in deldrimore and 6-7 in the others. My other 9 toons finshed EoTN with only 3-4 in all titles. If you reached 10 by the time you finished storyline, I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Also I dunno why don't you suggest banning PvE skills from challenge missions.

I've been meaning to, but thats only the place where its most self-evident. Competition exists all over PvE in the secondary forms of interplayer communication and freemarket economies.

aapo · Dec 05, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's less the "rewards" and more the "success": It goes against the saying "You'll prove your worth with ever battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate" (Prophecies box) to level up your Norn title track and go pwn face in DoA with UB and a Paragon with "Save Yourselves!" and "There's Nothing to Fear!"

- Skilled player can get UB and high-level areas can be completed certainly with other builds too. But that's beside the point. Some people have superior vigor in PvE and others don't, some have money for skills and equipment and are willing to farm golds and greens for weapon swaps. It makes no sense why PvE characters should have invariably same power level, but it's fundamental difference to other RPGS with PvP that each player has same statistics if he chooses to have. Latter was the "skill>time" vision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

In order to be as successful as someone of equal skill with maxed titles, you would need to spend over a thousand hours grinding.

- That makes no sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Not obvious at all, especially when the statement applied perfectly to a pre-grind title PvE game.

- Except that there's nothing to compete in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Thats exactly the point - A less skilled player can do better than more skilled player by virtue of grinding.

- You haven't shown any evidence how less skilled player with PvE skills can complete something that skilled player with moderate level PvE skills (or no PvE skills at all) couldn't do.